“we should embrace the Shockoe Center proposal”
As we wait for the latest economic study on the Shockoe Center and stadium proposal, the debate keeps on in our neighborhood. The RTD published a column from a Shockoe Bottom business owner who strongly supports the stadium. Josh Dare from the Hodges Partnership focuses his argument on why Shockoe Bottom is the best location and how the Shockoe Center proposal could be the missing link in revitalizing downtown. [via]
Not only was Shockoe Bottom the premier locale for a downtown ballpark in Richmond, it is the best site anywhere in the country… why has this Boulevard versus the Bottom debate been languishing for all these years?
Translation we plan to shove this thing down your throat because we see dollar signs. What is ignored is the damage it will cause make this all happen.
before richmond does anything in shockoe, it needs to do something about the crime.
Then they have no excuse when people don’t go to the games besides most of the crime around here is commited by people who don’t even live here.
You’re badly informed, Thomas. The RDN crime map shows relatively little crime in Shockoe these days. A quick look shows that since Jan.1 there haven’t been significant robberies, shootings, etc – only incidents typical to the rowdy late night behavior (DUI, disorderly conduct) or typical to urban neighborhoods (theft from cars). Shockoe is safer than the Fan these days.
hey john m, get a grip and reread my post. i said “richmond needs to do something about the crime.” in general not just shockoe. duh?
Your sentence was ambiguous, no need to be a dick.
Again, there is a lot more to this debate than financial concerns.
Why won’t anyone listen to people who actualy live in the City?
Where is the City referendum?
Scott- if there is a referendum on the matter, will you stand down if the people who actually live in the city come out FOR the stadium?
Just wondering. I don’t see anything wrong with having a referendum (especially because I think most people support the Shockoe stadium idea). But, I have a suspicion that everyone who has asked for such a democratic vote on the issue would quickly turn around and say that the vote also isn’t fair when it doesn’t turn in your favor.
because they were sold a bill of goods and they are not willing to think that this may all be Unicorns and Rainbows
There is one real advantage to this proposal which I think most people are missing. Putting a ballpark in the bottom has great potential to draw people from the suburbs into the city, many perhaps for the first time. Suburban Richmonders are notoriously terrified of Downtown, which is pretty clearly echoed in several of these posts. If people come, enjoy a game at the ballpark in shockoe, it has the potential to reshape their opinions about what downtown is like and I think has great potential to open suburbanities eyes to the wonderful things about downtown Richmond, like the Canal Walk, Shockoe Slip and Bottom, etc. A ballpark on the Boulevard, on the other hand, is a place where suburbanites can get in and out without really ever being in the city. And maybe that’s what makes them the most comfortable, but it’s not what’s best for the city in the long run.
Shockoe Center ballpark could do wonders to transforming the way Richmond’s suburban dwellers think about downtown. The Boulevard just doesn’t have the same potential. This, I think, could lead to increased vibrancy all over downtown, as well as many more people from the suburbs spending money downtown – which means more tax money for important things like schools, police and utilities. That, I think, is the main reason why Shockoe is the best place of the new ballpark.
Well check out Norfolk they had the same Idea and it failed They improved their ballpark to increase people to visit Waterside and the people came to the park and only the park they watched the game, ate and left never stopping at Waterside. Try again The ballpark will take a couple of years to build even at full pace and it will make things worse for those of us who live here (as if most of the people who want this care.)
They sold the Diamond the exact same way and we see where that ended up. I think these examples would be enough but nope most pefer the Unicorns and Rainbows they were sold versus reality
I wonder if Style will ever publish a story with an opposing viewpoint on this issue. Their coverage has been very one-sided.
Tiny- I can’t stop cracking up at the thought of Style ever writing anything resembling an ounce of journalistic integrity.
The Richmond Times Dispatch is just as one-sided but that does not matter since they are in favor because they will make money off the whole venture.
@ Paul #10. C
Considering the name and content I’d almost think I wrote this myself, but I THINK I would remember. In any case my feelings exactly.
@ SBD
You continue to be a beacon of optimism. Last I heard, Norfolk was drawing near 500,000. I’m not familiar with Norfolk, but SB has tons of places a mere few steps away and also thousands of residents within walking distance, but don’t let these litttle facts get in the way of your drumbeat of doom and gloom.
Just how does the Times-Dispatch make money off this. I only ask because I’m hoping it’s true.
We are talking the Ballpark not the location it was trying to help that was their selling point just like this and it will have the same effect. Thought this was to bring in the Frightened masses not just entertain those who are already here? These same people have to put up with all the construction that has to happen first. And as Norfolk you assume they will go to the other places once they are there.
The way I see it is the Ballpark owners want them to park,watch the game and eat at their establishments and no place else but hey you think they wander around an area they are afraid of good luck.
The Times dispatch gets money for all the ad sales and I am sure with their finacial state they don’t mind a contribution or two to say nice things about this deal
Charlie Diradour wrote an excellent critique of the Highwoods land deal on the current Style back page.
I would be interested to read any Shockoe Center proponents’ rebuttal to Diradour’s claim that the sales figures required to pay for the ball park are unrealistic.
Specifically, in order to pay for the bonds the City would issue, sales at Shockoe Center would have to roughly double sales figures at Short Pump Town Center.
Thanks for pointing out the op/ed Stuart! Looks like I missed it.
For those interested, here is the link.
I was talking to a real estate investor on Friday, and he brought up an excellent argument against keeping baseball on the boulevard. That land could be so much more valuable to Richmond. Think of its location right off multiple highway interchanges… If you developed any kind of office and retail space there that could be used more than 71 days a year, it would make a lot more money for the city than a stadium surrounded by blight and vacant parking lots.
Let’s think big picture here guys. Boulevard could be utilized in better ways. Shockoe needs a major project to give that extra push in fixing up the neighborhood. Not to mention that if this stadium doesn’t end up in Shockoe, it’s going to be in the suburbs- not the boulevard.
Also, it’s important to note Charlie Diradour has a vested interest in any developments on the boulevard. And you know a potentially successful development in another part of town doesn’t put money in his pocket.
shockoe & Scott Burger re: a referendum on Shockoe Center- we already went through a two year process to develop the City Downtown Master Plan, which was passed by Council.
Not only is a ballpark not part of the Plan we created, the Plan explicitly says to stop closing downtown streets. The Shockoe mall/ballpark will permanently close at least four city blocks in the Bottom, streets that have been the city fabric for more than 200 years.
Consider the referendum done- we already said “no” to downtown superblocks.
Good. Please tell that to VCU also.
Please – those streets that will be closed down are one-way and aren’t used that much. They are mainly only used as you circle around looking for parking.
we should wrap our arms around the proposal, pick it up, and put it on the boulevard where it belongs.
Won’t be any parking at all if they build there because they will need the other side of Broad for the Workers and they will have to move the parking the had planned in near the train station over there as well if they go with the Hub so it will be 6 city blocks closed and the space they have allocated will still not be enough for initial construction let alone when they attach all the add on projects that will have to make money
Stuart we both know if they see money or can make money off of this and seem clean they will go for it and forget the Master plan in the name of personal gain. They already set everything in motion to support it without looking like they were bought but that is all smoke and mirrors
Stuart- the Downtown Master Plan is meant as a guide, not a rule of law. You can develop items within the document or outside the guidelines. I think the overall doc is great, but you can’t say no to any idea just because there wasn’t the foresight to include it in the planning process. All-in-all the guide is really intended to encourage development by showing developers what the citizens expect. I think that has been somewhat accomplished in the new proposal with the stadium wrapped in other development meant to blend with the historic fabric and ‘hide’ the stadium. And, to reiterate what tiny said, those streets are already dead ends into the RR or unnecessary for the ‘city fabric’ -we’re not talking about closing Main st.
I’d agree with john that the Bottom is much safer than the average folk make it out too be. I walk around down there all the time with no problem. I wouldn’t do it by myself at night, but I wouldn’t do that anywhere.
The Durham Bulls complex is the most comparable I’ve seen and they are having great success to bring people into a city that, as a whole, people see as unsafe.
1) The Times-Dispatch has been pretty neutral during this whole thing…I distinctly remember them burying the difference between the new and old study in the 5th paragraph or so of that article. Hardly painted a fair picture of the study and many were outraged because they didn’t bother to read the whole article.
Church Hill’s association vote of NO was a major headline while Union Hill’s was just “Civic group supports ballpark”…nevermind that Union Hill is more directly affected by the development. I dont even think UH’s was front page.
2) Where to begin with Norfolk – they draw great attendance numbers, but the location of the stadium resembles the Boulevard in many many ways. Surrounded by interstate overpasses and a sprawling parking lot – who is going to make that walk in the dark down to Waterside?? Why make that walk when its just as easy to drive it since its not pedestrian friendly? The Bottom encourages people to walk to nearby attractions after the games…yes, people going places AFTER games are typically going to bars. As long as those bars are running legally (not like Club Velvet…), what’s wrong with encouraging that business?
3) Unicorns and Rainbows?? What happened to the Apple Pie?!?!?!
Why why why was this never posted anywhere?!?! Its Highwoods response to all the ACORN questions…
http://www.richmondneighborhoods.org/documents/HighwoodsPropResponses.pdf
Actually Anna I have ventured from Park to Waterside there is a path and it is not that bad but it never gets used because they go for the game watch,eat then Leave as fast as they can. You think they will want people to eat anywhere but the restaurants they build? They also have a bar in the plan as I remember and you think they want to have people go elsewhere when they could make some more money? Do you think that people who spent all the money on rent to have a bar at the ballpark is going to want people to drink anywhere else but their bar? (funny) Anna you assume they will encourage that business and that they will give out free puppies and kittens with each kids ticket.
We use The unicorns and rainbows in the pie crust gives it extra zip Just ask the Sham Wow guy
Lets hope they are just walking but so far you want your Ball park guest to go out and drink then drive and when does that start to become an issue?
Ah yes, now we’re concerned about bars in the bottom because there’s a baseball stadium there. That’s rich.
Fortunately, nobody can force anybody to eat anywhere. They are increasing the traffic in the area to service new and old business. Competition is good for consumers, it gives us more choice and forces all competitors to improve. Spare me the conspiracy that they’re going to keep people under lock and key in the newly introduced businesses. Yes, the ballpark will have a bar in it – guess what, they stop serving beer in stadiums after the 7th inning. And before you ask me how I know that, I go to lots of baseball games in many different places…its the same at every sporting event. Same concept as last call an hour or so before the average bar closes.
Anna you must like the “Conspiracy” word but like you know the 7th inning rule I know that unless people know the area they will be more likely got to the Bar at the Park. It is just a fact. They will not force anyone to do anything but they consider already established places competition that is the nature of the business. I am concerned for the increase of drinkers in the supposed “Family environment” then they end up drinking at the bar next door and if they manage to make their way out of that area to a real local bar I am sure they will have problems getting served because they were still over their limit before they left the ballpark. The Driving after all that does concern me because it does become an issue that is why I live where I do no need to drive.
I decided to check out of the dueling comments game for since it’s not moving the conversation. I’ve summarized my thoughts on several subjects here.
Baseball. the Bottom and other market related activities
I just would like to know how many of the people who claim to support this project have attended a baseball game in Richmond where they’ve actually had to pay out of their own pockets.
I live right in the area and I regularly attend Braves games in the Diamond. It’s only about $5.00 to get in and yes I paid out of my own pocket. And I definately support this project.
Also, about parking, the renderings I last saw included parking decks. I am sure use of these decks would not be exclusive to the ball park, so it would increase available parking.
Yep Yep Things seem to be at standstill but I suppose that being one of few people protesting this deal should automatically makes me Wrong.
Questioning the status quo on how many projects here in VA are run is not the thing to do. Pointing out issues that most likely will be fixed after the fact or swept under the rug is something to be done after the fact.
I should support things like A 2nd Convention center expecially when the other one is not making a profit and about every other major city in Tidewater has one of their own and that they will all have enough business to not drain each city of tax revenue. But this is not about that this is about Baseball and progress and How it will transform Shockoe Bottom to something new and Family friendly. And though I watch Nightclubs come and go because no one will go to them because they insisted that things had to be run their way and it was not how People in Richmond did things.
That something that only happens in small scale but on the scale you propose will make things all right. You want me to tell you I am wrong and every arguement I give is baseless and without any merit and the plan is set in stone without flaws.
I see the writing on the walls and I know how these games are played your going to get your ballpark no matter what I think but will it be the ballpark you were promised?
Why should I argue with it? I mean the construction noise that will be going on will be going on when I am at work. I have my own parking spot tucked away though I will probably have to fight for it with all the people who are still working on the project to get it done before season starts. I will have to watch the places I like to eat suffer because they used to have problems with people finding parking but hey all the free spots are taken. I am sure those who want this will be right down here with me living with these issues without complaint because the Ballpark needs to be built. The Ballpark Tax will just be around probably 5 or 6 years after the ballpark is built but I did not need that money for things like gas to go elsewhere to do my shopping or go to work. I can walk around and visit the shops that are not open and buy stuff on the cheap.
But it would be wrong of me to challange any of that because you are right and this ballpark has to be in Shockoe Bottom and when we add the chain resteraunts and bars and shopping it will make this place worth living in and all will be right with the world.
The MCV folks can find other places to park heck most of them walk all the way from Church Hill and they won’t mind the detours and displacement of the sidewalk area or the construction noises heck they are building around there all the time so they should be used to it.
The Mayor and City Coucil made sure they are set on this issue and when the report comes back they will charge forward and even offer tons of Tax money they collect from all of us to help pay for this.
Baseball in the Bottom….. yep that about says it anyway you look at
I used to attend a handful of Braves games a year. If the stadium was built in Shockoe, there’s no doubt I would buy season tickets (out of my own pocket, though I am sure either through my work or a friends I could get free tickets).
Tiny and Ry- yes, the current configuration of the streets doesn’t make sense. Reverting them to 2-way operation and reconnecting Grace west through the Main St. transfer center are parts of the Master Plan.
I know the Plan isn’t a binding, writ-in-stone guide to developing the city. But I really believe if we start implementing these easy ideas the downtown neighborhoods can become vibrant places again. Like Diradour said, we’re making the easy things really hard.
ShockoeBottomDweller- it seems like there is a very big chip on your shoulder about this proposal. I think you have some really interesting views on the ballpark and certainly all the plans should be challenged and scrutinized. However, it’s hard to qualify some of your points because you get very emotional about this. Half the time, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Please clarify.
Yes, SBD, you make the logical error of false presumption in many of your statements. I have no doubt you strongly believe in what you say, although you might note that the assumption of a false or unproven premise is a common tactic of propagandist.
Nothing need clarifying anymore I am wrong and everyone else is right. And Tiny your right classic tatics of a Propagandist. Because it is wrong to think that this is anything but good for everyone. I mean examples that have been given of prievious mistakes that have been made still dont prove the premise. Showing common tatics used to quell opinion would be useless because if you look they are already in place.
Shockoe clarity is for most around here that the plan Highwood has is 100% without a single flaw and they will do everything to make this ballpark the best thing for Shockoe Bottom. Why argue with it ?
Someone mentioned the Durham Bulls ball par. That park is probably the best comparison, and it has been a great success (I’ve enjoyed more than one game there). The biggest difference between Richmond and Durham is that downtown Richmond has much, much more to offer than Durham.
Also, for those worried that this will be a wasteland on days games aren’t being played… one of the best things about this proposal is that the stadium is not visible from most of the streets, the streetwalls are retained or much improved. It will be much less of a wasteland than the many many barren parking lots that are there now.
Also, people aren’t bringing up the fact that this proposal will dramatically alter the flood planes in Shockoe Bottom, effectively opening up many new lots of development that are simply un-developable with the current flood plane. The only people who can say this element of the project would be a bad thing must have a stick up their ass or something. And seriously, what else could accomplish the flood plane changes?
Paul no one is saying that changing the flood plain is a bad thing. Some of us ARE saying we have not seen any details on how this feat will be accomplished. And at what cost to us, and why spending an equal amount of public money fixing other things in the city might not provide more immediate economic benefit.
The floodplain has not been changed as a result of this proposal. Highwoods has no authority to deterrmine floodplain boundaries. That is the sole purview, under the National Flood Insurance Act, of FEMA. There is no property in the ‘new’100 year floodplain that has not been previously designated thusly.David White’s explanations are 99%b.s.(I crossed paths professionally with Mr. White several decades ago. He lied to me then, and he’s ‘enhancing’ the truth now. As long as Mr. White is involved, this project is highly, highly suspect.